#01 Let's Talk Breastfeeding

You might have prepared for pregnancy, read all the books you could get your hands on about the birth.
But how much did you prepare for breastfeeding?
I'm Manpreet Pinder, a journalist, a mother and someone who didn't have the breastfeeding experience
that so many of us expect.
Then I realised, I'm not the only one.
In this podcast, we're going to talk about it all.
The ups, the downs and everything in between.
Welcome to the next feed.
The very first episode of the next feed.
Now, full disclaimer, I wasn't a mother who explicitly breastfed her baby.
I encountered many challenges, which led to me introducing formula.
And I combination fed for quite a lot of my babies first year.
And here's the thing, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any parents decision
to feed a breast milk substitute to their baby.
There's no judgement here.
You have the right to choose to decide what's best for you and your baby.
But for me, I never contemplated any other way of giving milk to my newborn,
then by breastfeeding.
It wasn't even a goal.
I just presumed I'd do it and do it fairly easily.
So to have a journey which didn't quite go the way I wanted to, it hurt.
So I understand first hand how important it is to have the support, the knowledge,
and to have shared experiences when it comes to breastfeeding.
To give yourself the best chance of it going well, however that looks for you.
Now back to the first episode of the podcast, I was thinking,
who out of all the incredibly knowledgeable lactation experts out there,
the authors, the academics, who I'd love to get on first.
If you've sought out any information online or read any books on breastfeeding,
you'll recognise the names Professor Amy Bryan, IBCLC Lucy Ruddle,
and you may have heard of the breastfeeding network,
we'll be talking to all of them in future episodes.
But today I thought, why don't we just talk crack nipples and a few other things?
It seems almost like a right of passage if you want to breastfeed,
but does every breastfeeding parent really go through it?
And how big a deal is the whole breastfeeding part of your life anyway?
When your children are older, will you even remember much about how it went?
I thought a good way to find out would be to get together a couple of friends of mine
who had children long before I had my baby and asked them about how much they remember,
about the earliest days of motherhood.
Hi, I'm Kate and I've got three children that I breastfed.
Now they are 10, 6 and 4 years of age and I breastfed all of them
until they were two, two and a bit.
Hi, my name's Faye, I have one child and I breastfed her until she was 15 months old.
And I've got three children, so I did it three times and they were all completely different.
So I thought with my second and my third, you know, I was a pro at that stage
and I know I had major problems with my first and my third and my second child was really easy
with no pain at all and when I look at them properly, I can see that Eddie, my second, he just has
a really big mouth, he has a bigger mouth than the other two.
And I think that made all the difference.
But with my first born, I remember getting lots of advice from midwives and breastfeeding experts
and it just wasn't working for me and I remember sitting in a chair and I had to sort of like
move my leg, like flap my leg like this to try and control the pain and there was beads of sweat
running down my face and it felt, I'm so sorry to anybody who's listening that
I don't want this to put anybody off because like I said, I then did it for six years in total.
It felt like a puppy with sharp teeth was sucking on my breast.
It was unexcrushyatingly painful and everybody just sort of looked at me and shrugged and said,
oh, it looks fine to me.
So many people get that, you know, the whole it looks fine to me.
That must have been so frustrating because, okay, it might look great, but I'm in so much pain
here like somebody listen, absolute desperation. Every time health professional came to see me,
I was just flopping out my boo going, look, is this all right?
Just please tell me, I didn't care who was seeing it because I just wanted the pain to go and I
think when I look back now, it's like, oh, that must have been a bit weird because as soon as they
walked in, they'd be like, how are you doing? I'd be like, look, this pain and just look at me,
is it all all right? Just felt so alone because I didn't, I only knew one person at the time who
was who was breastfeeding their child and they didn't have the same issues that I had.
So that is my memory and then with my second, like I say, my memory was really positive and I
remember him latching on and I went, oh, this is how it was supposed to be. This is great.
This is no problem. And then with my third child, I went in with bravado because I'd only just
finished breastfeeding six months previous to having my daughter, my third child. And I thought,
I got this, I know what I'm doing and again, excruciating pain and on day three, I remember having
to put her to bed and I just sat on the, in the bathroom, I just sat on the toilet, I mean,
lit down, I was just sitting on the toilet and I was just in floods of tears and I just knew that
there was 10 hours ahead of me of pain and horror and I just remember with my husband going, I can't
go in there, I can't do it, I can't do it. In fact, it's bringing me to tears though.
But I did, you know what I did and it was all all right in the end.
I never experienced that sort of pain and it just listening to Kate's story, it's just making me
think, why does some women go through that amount of pain and some women don't? It just doesn't make
sense and it's just cruel, isn't it? It's just so unfair. But Kate, well done for persevering,
I mean, that is really, really hard when everything in your body is saying, this is hurting me so
much, but you know, you know it's going to do so, so much, so beneficial to your children to
carry on doing this. But yeah, how unearthed did you carry on doing this? Well, I'm quite bloody
minded, aren't I? That's amazing. I'm just really, I'm quite determined with stuff and I just knew
that I wanted to breastfeed. I just, I felt like I didn't have an option and that's because
of not of society's pressures or maybe it was my own pressure. Nobody was telling me to do it,
it was purely came from me and I just wanted to do it and I also knew that it would get better.
Faye, listening to that, you had your own obstacles because your baby was born really,
really prematurely. Yeah, that's right. So Nancy was born at 28 weeks and she was just two pounds
four ounces. So she was whisked away to Niku and that was it. I didn't see her for the first 24
hours. So I just had a classical Caesarian whisk back to the maternity ward and at that point,
I knew all of everybody's attention was on Nancy and she really needed all of that attention
because she was in a quite a poor state. And by that time my milk had come in, so for anybody who's
been through this, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about when I say completely wet t-shirt
and I'm like, wow, this is amazing. What is my body doing? And there was just nobody around to
ask for help. Meanwhile, I was getting messages from Niku, so they really needed my milk, my
breast milk, for Nancy. And that is the only thing that little premi babies can take on. And Niku,
they have people who donate breast milk to premi babies. And I was determined to make milk
for Nancy. If that's the only thing that I could do for her, I wanted to be there for her. But I
had nobody showing me how to harvest this milk and or the midwives were rushing around so busy.
And I said, what do I do? I was looking to my husband Lee saying, desperate hit her, what do I do?
And one really kind midwife stopped and showed me how to hand pump my breasts. And she said,
what you really need to do is go to the expressing room at that point. I didn't know what she was going
on about at all. So I was in a better state. I got wheeled up to the expressing room, which is by
Niku, and then had a very, very quick demonstration on how to express milk using the machines there.
So that was it. That was my introduction and slowly but surely, because Nancy was so, so tiny,
she couldn't breastfeed. So relied on me expressing milk every day. And I kept that going, kept that
going. And then a few weeks later, she gained weight and we were moved to sort of a different hospital
where she didn't need so much one to one care. And we were able, I mean, this is some weeks later,
we were able to breastfeed traditionally without, because she was being fed through a tube at this
point and she was able to latch on. So it was a really, really long journey. But like Kate, I was
so determined to do it. It's the one thing that I could do, do for her to make her strong and well.
I appreciate that you were kind of very determined that you wanted to provide breast milk
for Nancy. But it must have been really difficult to do that when she's not there right next to,
you know, you're not holding her and seeing her and, you know, having all of those cuddles. And
I've read a little bit about how you can look at pictures or you could give them a blanket,
and then it might smell of them. Those are the kind of things that you tried then when you were
camping. Yeah, just having having a photograph on my phone and we would have
material with her smiles on and vice versa. But yeah, it's very, very difficult to do because it's
it's quite a clinical setting sitting in the expressing room, you know, it just feels like a dairy
and you're like, oh, being milked. And it's just everything so so clinical about the room.
It's not a soft room at all and you're, you know, your corridors away from your baby. So yeah,
it's a really difficult process. But we've got there in the end. We've known each other for quite
a few years now. And this is the first time that we've actually really spoken about breastfeeding
properly. I think other than, oh, does, does she be feeding? Or, you know, this, there wasn't really
ever much in the way of breastfeeding. I think with Kate, I popped over to your house at some point.
And I think your eldest was a bit older, actually. But I remember there being in the kitchen,
I think I asked you something about breastfeeding and you said, yeah, it's great. You know,
it's really beneficial to the baby. And I remember saying something like, yeah, well, I know that.
My mother breastfed me and I felt like, you know, when I'm aware of the benefits, I should
the time come when I have a child. I don't need to ask you any more questions. And with you,
I remember talking to you about the fact that your baby was so small and their mouth was so small.
I remember being saying, yeah, it's just, it's complicated because actually she should still be
inside me right now growing. And my name was this big. And I think this big. And I don't quite know
how it's going to work. Those are about the only conversations, I think, that I remember, sadly.
We just don't really talk about it much, do we? No. I think Kate was the only, only other person I
knew in, yeah, I've got a lot of friends as you know, girls. But in my sort of social circle that
that was breastfeeding, I didn't know anybody else apart from my own mom who'd breastfed. So,
I mean, that's, that's incredible, isn't it? Kate, were you aware that you were, you are the person
that a lot of us will think of everything? We can't breastfeed. We think, Kate, I'm a
thousand care. She knows all about it. No, I had no idea at all. I think I was always very reluctant
to talk to people who hadn't yet got babies about the painful side of it. I still am really reluctant.
I'm always really respectful of other people's decisions. And I might say, if somebody's got a
baby in their breastfeeding, or just when they've got a new baby, you might be like, house things,
anything they want to offer something up, they'll say, well, if they want to, and you can start a
conversation that way, I remember my friend saying to me, when I was pregnant, she said, it'll hurt
for the first five weeks. So I suppose when it did hurt, I had a goal. I had a deadline. I thought
right, you just get through five weeks. If she hadn't have said that to me, perhaps I would have
given up in the beginning because I might have thought, gosh, it's going to be like this forever,
well, you know, for all the whole time. I don't know. Would it have put you out if I had
said to you, it's going to hurt like hell for six weeks. Would that have put you off?
I probably would have thought in my head, well, that might be true for some people, but it's not
true for everybody. And I'm likely going to be the person right where it won't hurt. So I probably
would have thought, oh, yeah, I hear what you're saying. It'll be different with me. I think I would
have thought that was the truth. But I didn't genuinely, like I didn't know I've heard of
crack nipples with breastfeeding, but I didn't really understand that sometimes that pain can be
for some women, quite a big part of that initial breastfeeding journey at all. Did you ever think
about like pain and breastfeeding? Was that a thing? No, I mean, I just didn't know anything about
breastfeeding at all before having Nancy. I just knew that I wanted to breastfeed. And you know,
going back to the conversation we had earlier about, we just don't talk about it, do we? We just
don't talk about it. And what's involved? I mean, I didn't even know you could express your own milk
until I was in that situation. And I'm just thinking now, you know, you hear moms talking about,
I don't want to breastfeed because it's such a tie. And it's only me that can do that, not the
dad or whoever is supporting that mom. But expressing milk is a really great option. If you're a working
mom or if you need to be somewhere else, you know, you can still provide milk for your baby and not
not being in the house, you know, you can have it all stored up. When I left hospital, I made so much
milk in the expressing room, the day we left, because it's all frozen, nothing goes to waste.
And as we were getting checked out, it makes it sound like a hotel. I was there for a really,
really long time. They said, don't forget your milk. We have got crates and crates of it in the
freezer. And it was just, it was good to go. So yeah, that was, that was one thing I wish I did know
before, before breastfeeding. But yeah, you get there's lots of ways of doing it, you know.
Both of you've had very, very, very different breastfeeding journeys. And it just shows that you
can't predict how yours is going to go. But it's really interesting listening to you,
you're talking about having this abundance of milk and really feeling like your milk's come in.
And this, you know, I did that there's like a plentiful supply. I didn't get that. I didn't get
that feeling of like my milk coming in. I didn't like I was always kind of on the low supply side
of things. And there's reasons for that. And we're kind of going to that in future episodes. But
similar kind of issue to Kate, there's kind of tongue time involved. So milk wasn't really like
being encouraged. So I didn't get that. I'm listening to you. And I'm like, I really wish that
I'd had a baby about the same time as you. I could have just taken off. Take it a crate of your hands.
You got it. I mean, it is an amazing feeling as well that you're,
that you're producing this milk. I mean, it is, you know, I was just looking at my body thinking,
wow, I'm really clever producing this, this, this life source for my own baby. Just about really
proud of myself. And it's just a natural thing that happens. So yeah. But you'd get milk envy
in the expressing room. I'd turn to my right. And there was somebody expressing gallons of the
stuff. So I had a good amount. But there's, there's people who can express quite a lot as well.
So there's always somebody who's going to produce more than you. So don't, don't worry, Mum,
Kate, did you ever go through the whole kind of expressing and either to increase your supply or,
you know, yeah, I tried not very successfully. So I remember with my first, I remember I'd be
feeding him or I'd just latch him on. And then the other boob magically starts producing,
have you had this when you're feeding one? And then the other one's just going for it. And I'm like,
I've not got twins here calm down. And, and I remember thinking, I wish there was some sort of
device and in my mind, I was trying to invent it. I was like, is there some sort of like cup where I
can catch it? And then save that for later. And I've just been told today, actually, that there
is something like that now. There is some sort of bra where you can, you can catch milk dripping
from your boobs and then store that for later. I'm fantastic invention. I wish I'd got there and done that.
But when it came to wanting to express, I was just, I couldn't do it. I was rubbish at it. And I
remember going back to work when my first was 10 months old. And just the pain, you know, because
you've got so much milk, the pain just having too much milk and nowhere to go. So I would go into
the staff toilets, because there was nowhere else in the building to go at that time. There is now,
but there wasn't then. And I would get my expressing machine thing, my pump. And I'd be sitting in
the toilets and I'd be full and in pain. And it just couldn't come. It just wouldn't, it just
wouldn't release. So I'd get my phone out and I'd look at pictures of my baby and it still wouldn't
work. And that was so frustrating. So it did have to, we did have to buy little bottles of formula
for when I was at work, because I just couldn't express the emotional side of it. I don't suppose it
didn't help that I was sitting in a loo trying to do it, but couldn't do it. Yeah, that couldn't
have been the nicest place to be expressing. But there are lots of us that don't respond very
well to pumps. And I'm somebody that's the same. I mean, I can pump for 20 minutes and I'll be lucky
to get five or 10 mil out of like one beep, but probably about three mil out of the other. It just
doesn't do it for us. But clearly, Faye, you've worked it like magic. It works for you. You're fine.
You're getting some milk. I don't, you know, it's just weird, isn't it? It's all I knew from the
very start that that was the way that it was going to be for weeks. And I never thought, I never
thought I would be able to actually breastfeed Nancy myself after all that time. And in fact,
all the doctors and the midwives and the NICU staff were saying, this is a really unusual case
that you have gone on to breastfeed Nancy yourself that, you know, most people that come through NICU
give up. We did have a little bit of help. I just remember actually, you know, talking about the
size of your baby's mouth. I had something, it was, I think it called a nipple shield. She needed
something bigger to hold on to even though she had a little, little mouth. So that's what we use
for a really long time. And then we got to a stage when she was a bit bigger. She didn't need it
anymore. And I mean, this is like weeks into it. She was 10 weeks by by the time we left. And she
just started breastfeeding without it. So, yeah, it's a really long journey. But I'm so glad I
persevered because like I said at the start, you know, 50 months later, still breastfeeding her.
And it's so flipping convenient, isn't it? I don't know. This is what people don't talk about or
realize. You can just breastfeed anywhere. And I remember we did a lot of walking where we used to
to live Nancy's first home. And I was breastfeeding on top of this massive hill in Gloucestershire.
And I was like, this is freedom. This is brilliant. I haven't got to think about warming anything up.
It's good to go. Yeah. So yeah, extremely convenient. Yeah, I want to concur with that as well.
You know, the positives of it, it is so convenient. And it helps in so many different situations.
If they're unhappy, they just need soothing a little bit. And I've got to admit, I always
breastfed my babies to sleep as well. So it helped them get really sleepy and dreamy. And
and when it's your first born as well, I just remember with Michael, I would just sit there and
he would feed until he was asleep. And then I just have a book in my other arm. And I just
used to read and I was like, this is heaven. I'm just sitting here holding my baby. And yeah,
I haven't got to wash any bottles or sterilize anything. And you can just do whatever you want.
Yeah, this convenience is unbelievably beneficial. Yeah. Lots of people talk about the health benefits
for the baby. But I remember when I tried to explain to people why I was so passionate about
breastfeeding, why I really, really wanted to breastfeed. It was really struggling with breastfeeding
and had introduced formula. And we'd had this undiagnosed tongue tie for five months. And it was
just six months. And it was just really difficult. And I remember trying to explain to people why I
wanted to breastfeed. And I'd say the predictor, oh, well, you know, because it's best for baby. And
and then I would try to out the line about it. It also being really beneficial to me as the mother,
less likelihood of various cancers. And there's so many health benefits to a breastfeeding mother.
But I also wanted to say something else. And I found it really hard to articulate. But I think
part of it is that it's like the convenience. You know, it's what I remember seeing my mum do with
my younger sisters. You know, she'd fall over and cry in the garden. And my mum would run out and
she'd let scoop her up. And I was about five years old at this point. She'd scoop her up, take her
inside, sit on safer, pop on the beab. And my sister would be fine. And it was that that I wanted.
And also this, there's this like innate feeling that I want to have my baby in my arms. And I want
to be breastfeeding like I want them to be feeding off me rather than anything else. And it's sad,
odd to say sometimes to people, that's what I want to happen. But I think I want to provide the milk
from my own body. But if you say it to people, it's a bit like it's kind of it crazy there.
A cow can make that milk for you very cheaply. And you can provide that. But yeah, there's this
feeling that nature was intending it this way. And it just kicked in for me that that feeling of
wanting to breastfeed. And also with our breast milk. And I don't know too much about this. So
perhaps later on in other episodes, you might explore this. But the unique properties that your
milk has for your baby and how your milk changes even within the circadian rhythm of the day.
So your milk at breakfast time is different to how it is during the rest of the day. And how
it changes to suit what they need. So if they're a little bit dehydrated, then your milk will have
more water in it. And there is a theory. I don't know how true this is. But you know how
we love to kiss our baby's face as don't we? So if they pick up lots of germs as they do lots of
viruses that baby's pick up and then we kiss them. And then we get those germs and then we produce
the antibodies. That goes into our milk. And then we're basically feeding our babies the antibodies
they need to get over whatever cough or cold snivel that they have. I mean, how magical is that?
That is amazing. Isn't it amazing? The thing for me is going back to what you're saying about
the health benefits, man. I didn't really know about all of the health benefits for me as a breast
feeding mom until I'd had Nancy and we'd come out of sort of critical care, moved to sort of
less dependent ward for Nance. And then we had a team of volunteers walking around the wards.
So I think they're from a breastfeeding support group in Gloucestershire. Then talking to,
you know, they were there if you wanted to have a chat. They weren't sort of forcing their views
on you at all. But then they would talk to you about the health benefits of breastfeeding. And
and I was like, I'm already signed up to this, you know, brilliant, but this is really interesting
to hear this. But it just felt a little bit too late. It felt a little bit too late for some people.
It should have been there before birth if you see what I mean. You know, those kinds of chat,
it's beneficial for baby and you and here's why and all all the support with breastfeeding as well.
It just felt a little bit too late, which I feel really sad about. You need that intervention
earlier, I think. You've got me thinking about sex education at school. You learn about that,
but you don't learn about things like breastfeeding. I would have thought it would be quite helpful
as young person to understand the different functions of the body and what we use our bodies for.
And actually, would it be really helpful? I don't know to learn about the other years.
Yeah. Yeah. When you're okay. What's the other you said?
What's the other you said? No, listen. But you learn about puberty, right? And like, it's only the
girls that learn about boobs, I think. I was never in boy sex ed classes, but as a girl, like,
you'd learn about the fact that you're going to like at some point grow these or you may have
grown these already, but you know, you'd learn about puberty, but you'd learn it with the end goal
being the fact that you might then one day have sex with somebody else. It was never about
cute. Actually, they can be useful lactation. They can be used to sustain this little baby that you
may have in the future. Yeah, it's interesting. You say that, man, pray, because
well, we've got a book that my oldest has recently read. So he's been doing sort of modules at school
now. He's 10. He's been talking about our changing bodies, okay, at school. So they have been
talking about puberty, male and female, you know, so that they all learn together. And he's got
this book, we thought, right, we should buy it. We do need to buy him a book with
accurate information in. And when it comes to the, and it's aimed at boys, and when it comes to
the part about girls, it says something on the long the lines of girls women have breasts.
It says something along the lines of they can be nice to look at and they can feel nice.
And my friend and I were looking at it and going, hello, they also
had to feed your baby. And it doesn't say it in this book. And I'm wondering, it does it say that
because boys might be looking at breasts and going, oh, I've got some interesting feelings here
when I'm looking at girls' breasts. And it's helpful for them to read that in the book that that's
okay. But I think also it should should also have said, and they produce milk to feed babies.
Why didn't it say that? Yeah, yeah. So you were too late for your first business idea,
but I reckon we should co-author a book with children. And we should put that in there. It's,
it seems crazy to me. I don't know if it's just because now I've had a baby and, you know,
experienced breastfeeding, but it seems crazy to me that that wouldn't be in there, that wouldn't
be included. It just seems so obvious. Do you want me to go and get it? I know it's up in my bedroom.
Shall I go and get it? And then I can read it properly. Yeah, would you mind getting it?
I have, but it seems like it seems like my memory has served me wrong, girls. I'm so sorry.
So the book is, oh, okay. What's happening to me? It does mention milk actually, so I need to
retract my statement, but the end, it says, breasts and bras. Often the first growing up change
that boys notice about girls is their breasts. These have various functions. They make milk for a
baby soon after it's born. They look attractive and they're sensitive to touch. So they do say,
and it's the first one they make milk. So I'm sorry, I got that wrong, but I think it's the last
apart. They look attractive and they're sensitive to touch. But I, maybe they put that in, yeah,
for the boys who are saying that and they're thinking, oh, why am I feeling funny? So the rest of the
book's great though. I've got to admit, so it's done in a way which is quite easy for young people
to understand and it's quite funny as well. So I think it's a decent book. It's just that.
Okay, I have that line. I didn't like. Yes, you'll need this in eight years.
We've touched a little bit on support or lack of support, but thinking back to
your own children and especially the first few weeks, which we know can be really intense because
that's about building up this relationship and building your supply at the same time.
Do you remember around being supported by your family? Was there much in the way of
like conversations with parents or siblings or anybody else around, you know, what you're doing
with your baby? And was there ever any offer of support? Like, you know, I'll come round and
clean your kitchen while you sit on the sofa for a few feeds. You're looking at me like no, no.
I just, I remember when you, all you need when you're breastfeeding is you need to sit on a couch
and you need people to bring you cups of tea and cake. That is just all you need in life, isn't it?
And you know, when do you remember that feeling of when they first latch on and being so thirsty,
the thirst comes on like that. You feel like you could drink the sea and you would be out of
reach of a tap. Your glass would be just out of reach. And I just remember thinking all I want
is just somebody to break me drinks and foods. That is a top tip actually, Kate, you know, if you
sit down to breastfeed, you have your pint glasses of water lined up before, before you go
and you're remote control or your book and some, I remember somebody saying to me, eat food
that you can eat with one hand. So pizza sandwich because you're going to, you're going to be
supporting your baby with the other arm. And this is another thing that nobody ever tells you that
your baby could be latched on for 45 minutes an hour, hour and a half. It's however long it takes.
It's not just a quick 10 minutes, you have to sit and wait until your baby is finished.
And it can be little enough done or it can be big old slurps that just seem to go on for forever.
And you've got to have nothing else to do that day, you know, if you have any plans, just throw
them out the window because that feed comes first. And sometimes you just need somebody to pass you
a cushion, don't you, because as they get bigger and heavier, you need more support under your
elbows. And yeah, you're looking round for, yeah, it's you water your food, remote or your book,
and some and some cushions. But I don't remember family being particularly helpful if I'm quite honest,
but no, no, no, me. I don't have them. They're not very close to me anyway. So I don't know how
they could have helped. I remember people asking me how often my baby was feeding. He was saying
that they that sometimes feeds could last an hour plus. I remember people asking me and I was like,
what counts as a feed? Because I don't know where one feed stops and another way. And then
where it ends and then when the next one starts, it was just like it was just continued.
Yeah, that might be like a quick detachment and then kind of like look around and re-asson you
and then like back on. Is that another feed or is that still the same feed? I don't know what that is.
That seemed to really annoy my mother, the length in which Nancy would be on the
boob. It's like, well, first of all, it's none of your business, but this is what she needs to do.
It's like, I'm not going to stop her from feeding. So yeah, not much support. People were supportive,
you know, friends and family, but yeah, I'm pretty much like Kate, you know, just not anywhere near
family that could help out really. So yeah, you just had to build that routine into your day and
and be pretty self-sufficient. I do want to give a big shout out to the the breastfeeding support
network who helped me so much. So I mentioned that I was going through a lot of pain and I was
absolutely desperate and I knew a lady who was breastfeeding support person. I didn't know her very
well, but I just knew of her in the village where I lived. So I went to see her and I remember that
my baby was wearing a baby grow where there's like mittens that go over the hands and so their hands
are completely covered because in those early days, sometimes they scratch their faces, don't they
with their nails and things. As they do, they want to have a look at how you're holding baby and
their latch and everything. And she also said, take the mittens part off because the baby needs to be
able to feel your skin. And that was a fantastic piece of advice and I never used the mittens again
because as they are feeding, they are needing to touch you and connect with you and they need to
feel the warmth of your skin in their hands. So I always remember that. So that was really,
really helpful and she was also really good at just telling me to get comfortable first
because the baby is crying. Wow, and you just want to make them happy and you don't often get
yourself comfortable and then that would lead to tension in my body and tension in my shoulders.
And she was like, always get yourself really snug and comfortable first. And I got one of those
breastfeeding pillows. You know, there's horse shoe shape, what things that go round your waist
so that you can rest the baby in your arm on and that was just a game changer.
Yeah, you know, forget all the other paraphernalia that you get bought. Get one of those, they're brilliant.
Did you have a little footstool as well? That was recommended to me, a little footstool.
I mean, you see children using them to wash their hands but yeah, that was recommended,
a little footstool just to get into a better position and the pillow like you say.
Do you know what? It does depend on where you'll be kind of 40. When it comes to the pillow,
some people find that the pillow is actually not very helpful because your baby ends up too high.
And if you're a bit lower, like it's just a matchup. Yes, you might need to or something else underneath.
That was Kate and Fay sharing how they felt about their own breastfeeding journeys.
It's been a long time, particularly for Fay since they were at the nursing stage, but
they still remember so much about their experiences. It was clearly a really important time for them.
Now, we've spoken a lot today about pain. I just want to say if you're wondering whether it's
inevitable, it absolutely is not. If you are experiencing pain, please reach out to somebody
to talk through exactly what's happening when you're nursing or when you're expressing
and try to get to the root cause of that pain because breastfeeding should absolutely not be painful.
Now, some of what we've heard about in this episode, we will explore more with people who work in
lactation support on future episodes of this podcast. But for now, if you've listened to that and
you're struggling with any aspect of breastfeeding, there are help lines you can call and I'll pop the
numbers for those in the show notes. If you're currently breastfeeding, I'd love to hear how you
find in it. Was it everything you expected? We will be hearing your stories on the next feed,
as well as hearing from many of the experts in breastfeeding about the common hurdles that many
breast, chest and body feeding parents come across. Hope you can join us next time.
You've been listening to the next feed, the breastfeeding podcast. If you want to listen to more,
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All the links can be found by heading to the nextfeedpodcast.com.